Voiceover (00:04):

Welcome to the Architects Possibility Podcast with David Bradley of Blueprint For Living Coaching. Each week we connect with design professionals, just like you, who are using their creativity, leadership, and passion to make the world a better place in ways both big and small, every day. Now, here’s the host of the Architect’s Possibility Podcast, architect and executive coach, David Bradley.

DB (00:26):

Hello everybody. And welcome to the Architect’s Possibility Podcast. I’m really excited today because we get to speak with Jean Dufresne, who is an architect in Chicago, principal and cofounder of Space Architects and Planners, which is a design firm. He’s got 17 people working in the office, doing all sorts of stuff with residential, commercial, retail, corporate work, and even some interior design. So we’re going to spend some time getting to know Jean and just having a great conversation about possibility in architecture. So, Jean, welcome.

JD (01:02):

Thank you very much.

DB (01:03):

Great to have you here. Let’s just jump in. I mean, there’s some things that I’ll probably want to bring in during the conversation, but let’s just start with your background in architecture. What got you into it? What inspired you to get into the profession?

JD (01:22):

Well, that’s a loaded question, but, I, growing up, I always had an affinity for drawing and math and sort of all the things that, turns out you need to enjoy to be a good architect. I also had wonderful parents that sort of let me explore as many things that I wanted to. My poor mom was dragged by me even when I was like 10 or 12 to open houses and things in my neighborhood I grew up in, so it wasn’t, you know, don’t get too excited about what I was dragging my mom to. It was, you know, contractor grade, um, you know, subdivisions and things like that outside of Montreal, just outside of Montreal. So I grew up about 20 minutes South of Montreal in a little town called _____. It’s right on the Richelieu river and with great…I mean, it was great growing up there. I had some great friends and again, my parents were and still are awesome and great cheerleaders for all the crazy things I do. But you…my mom tells me stories that I would take like the little brochure plans and bring them home and, take some point pen and change things and show it to her and be like, why didn’t they do this like this? Why did they put the closet over here? So I kind of decided I wanted to go into architecture. Like, my dad’s explained to me what it was. And my grandfather had studied the Beaux Arts and was a die maker. So basically he made molds for, um, most of which was like sort of national Canadian stuff, like military buttons, commemorative things for whether the queen was coming and things like that. So he was an incredible artist. So that combination that I grew up with surrounded by that and supported by that. Uh, so that led me to architecture and ended up studying architecture at McGill university in Montreal. Um, once I graduated, I had a couple of friends that had found work in the States. So I looked into that, um, got a job in Chicago, making very little money, um, and really enjoyed it, learned quite a lot, had, uh, a boss and managers there that were very willing to sort of, um, give us responsibility and sort of trust that we can, you know, learn on the fly and, you know, threw you in the deep end of the pool, which was fantastic. And that’s where I met my business partner that I started Space Architects with, Jay Keller, and we had worked a couple of years together. And then in 20-, in 2003, we started Space Architects.

DB (04:20):

Right. 2003. So you’ve got some staying power – you’ve seen a lot.

JD (04:26):

Oh, we made it through 2008, which was awesome, and we’re, you know, navigating through COVID-19 so, so far so good.

DB (04:36):

What was it about architecture specifically that drew you?

JD (04:42):

Um, I want to say it, at least for me was the balance of creativity and sciences. I’ve always been a big fan of geometry, algebra, math, that kind of stuff in school. It’s just, just got me excited. Um, I was a complete and utter nerd in school. Um, and so I really enjoyed doing those things. And then at the same time, um, my parents supported sort of my, uh, desire to draw and sketch and just be crafty in general. So, um, I took like outside of school, I took art classes and things like that. Um, so yeah, I, I had great teachers and I had, like I said, great parents that sort of explained, you know, maybe you’d like to be an architect and I’m like, well, what’s that? And it seemed like a perfect melting pot of all the things.

DB (05:36):

Right. I often say that to people it’s like this Renaissance profession, because you’ve got to have, you’ve got to know you’ve got to be an expert on almost everything to a certain degree. Right. And it kind of pulls together the hard sciences and the softer sciences and the creative aspect that, uh, I know that definitely was…

JD (05:56):

And the nice is it grew from that from, you know, especially after we opened the office, I realized that it’s on top of all those things. I’m a very social person. Like I love meeting people. I like talking to people and like getting to know people. Um, so the psychological side of architecture, like dealing with clients and trying to understand what they want, what, what works for them, what doesn’t, um, adapting your language. So their language, because they don’t speak architecture, but it’s our job to adapt to their language. Um, so all that kind of stuff even made it that much more exciting and that much more like I, I did, I made the right decision. I’m on the right path, uh, simply because it’s something I enjoy so much. I probably enjoy that more now than some of the creative aspects of it. Like I, I liked the people side of things.

DB (06:53):

So is there a balance between you and your business partner then? Like, one is more the people person, one is more the designer?

JD (07:02):

I, yes, I, I think I have, I have two partners now. So we have Ramiel Kenoun that joined us…well, he was with us for a very long time. He was an employee for 10 years and became partner a couple of years ago. Um, and now that like the three of us very much sort of, uh, complement each other really well, which makes working with them every day, sort of wonderful and exciting. Um, just challenging in a good way. You know, we, we push each other, not in a pushing buttons kind of way, but more of like a, trying to get better at what we do. Um, but yeah, we certainly have, like, I’m probably the one that goes to, um, you know, happy hours and meetings and conventions. And, um, I’m the one involved with AIA and I have been for the last like 12, 15 years Jay, my partner, is, um, incredibly good on the technical side of things and detailing and all of that kind of stuff. Um, and Ramiel’s this great sort of, um, facilitator within the office, um, and straddles like, uh, the straddles, what I’m good at and what Jay is good at and sort of fills in all the gaps. So it’s this perfect set of, it’s a really good marriage.

DB (08:19):

It’s a really nice mix of a partnership when you started, I’m curious when you went, what, um, what is it that spurred you to start your own firm?

JD (08:28):

knowing we could do better? Um, I don’t wanna, yeah, I don’t, I’m not good at boasting, but we had, we had two people that were, we, as in Jay and I had two people that we reported to some on top of that we had, um, a boss and the two people we reported to, um, decided to leave and being next in line for a period of time. Cause those two guys weren’t replaced. A lot of it…All of it fell on Jay and I, and then we realized that like, we’re actually doing this pretty well. Like we, we, we, you know, we were in our late twenties doing stuff that I never thought I’d be doing at that age. Um, certainly not in Chicago, all this stuff was like, Oh my God, this is kinda cool, um, so it was exciting. The responsibility was exciting. The trust we were getting from clients was, was really nice. And we were establishing really solid relationships with consultants and, uh, clients and city people. Cause at the time we were still, you know, going downtown and waiting in line outside to, you know, zoning or the building department. So we sort of realized like, at least I did, I thought I was realizing this on my own, thinking, you know, it’d be nice to, you know, do this now. Um, we were, like I said, in her late twenties, so if it didn’t work out, I felt like I I’d still be marketable. You know, I wouldn’t be that guy like, Oh, he’s too old. Like he ran his own business and like,

DB (10:11):

So the timing was right.

JD (10:11):

I certainly felt that way, but I didn’t want to do it alone. I had worked for a single, like a solo practitioner for a while when I was in Chicago. And then I had worked for some back home in Montreal and saw how much they relied on us to bounce stuff off of. But at the same time, we’re sort of navigating the, how much do I tell them and how little do I tell them? Because they’re like, they’re still an employee. Right. And I’m like, I don’t want to do that. I want to have someone else that I can like lean on. And I also want to be able to take a couple of days off and someone can, you know, steer the ship while I’m gone kind of thing. Um, I had spoken to my husband at the time and told him, you know, there’s a guy at the office that I think I could work with. Uh, he’s like, well, just ask him to dinner and, you know, see what he says.

DB (11:01):

Start the conversation.

JD (11:02):

Yeah. So we did that and it turns out he was talking to his family about me, uh, for the same exact reason. So we’re like, let’s do it. So six months after we started chatting, um, we started the business.

DB (11:16):

I know there are going to be people listening to this who are thinking about going off on their own. What’s the thing that, you know, now that you wish you had known when you started?

JD (11:25):

I don’t think there’s anything to be honest with you.

DB (11:34):

Really?

JD (11:34):

I think it’s all a question of taking the risk. I remember. And I have, I’ve had, I remember feeling like, is this, is this the right time? And there is no such thing. Um, I’ve had plenty of friends since then in the last, like 20 years that were thinking about it. And the, my best advice to all of them has always been now like take the jump. There’s never going to be a perfect scenario where all of the stars align.

DB (12:06):

Right.

JD (12:07):

And the best thing you can do is to give it a shot, give it 110% and if it’s meant to happen, and if you work your ass off, can I say that? Yeah, it will work The thing. Yeah. I don’t know if there’s anything like some magic advice that I, I wish I would have gotten. Um, cause I think I’d say make sure you have a good support system. I think that’s, I think that comes without saying, but you know, financially you might not be like raking in the dough. They, you start. So just definitely have, you know, I think those are logical things. If you’re going to go into business for yourself, I would assume anybody would know enough to have a little bit of savings on the side to get you through.

DB (12:56):

Right.

JD (12:56):

Um, but the best thing is get out there, especially if you’re in architecture, if you’re going to start your own firm, um, I guess a good piece of advice – network with other people that aren’t architects. I think as a profession, we’re really good hanging out with each other. Um, we might refer each other because I don’t do a specific type of architecture, but you do, or you’re better at it than I am, or I don’t, I’m not going to take that scale of projects or that kind of stuff, but that’s few and far between like get out and meet people that have nothing to do with architecture. And they’re the ones that are going to refer you, and be nice. Just be the person that people want to hang out with and talk to and talk about. Um, if you’re not a nice friendly person that is, um, comes across at least as collaborative and, uh, hardworking and problem solving people aren’t gonna send business your way.

DB (14:02):

Most people probably wouldn’t want that right. In any profession, but that does, that does make sense. What, um, so you can, you’ve been running your firm now for 17 years. So 2003, right. 17 years,

JD (14:22):

Jeez, that sounds like a long time, That’s like a college person.

DB (14:26):

Well, and you know, I mean to your credit, the vast majority of firms don’t make it that far. So you’re obviously doing something right. Um, what, what role does leadership play in your professional day to day life in your well, one of the reasons I’m asking is because in your, in your bio, I know just personally, I know that you’re very, very involved with the AIA Chicago and also nationally. And a lot of the work that you’ve been doing both locally and nationally has been, um, in advocacy, uh, on the one hand for small practitioners, uh, or owners of small firms. And on the other hand, the LGBTQIA community, I’m curious, I’m curious about your leadership in those spaces. What can you share with us?

JD (15:22):

Um, it’s certainly not something that I saw myself doing. I always thought I was the quiet, shy nerdy guy. Um, and then realized as I was sort of thrust in that position at the firm where I met Jay, I kind of, you know, again, I was thrown into the deep end and I had to do it, you know, there was nobody else to do it. And I had a sense of duty to my boss and to the business that he was running, that I needed to do the best job possible. So I had to all of a sudden lead projects and make clients and, you know, walk into meetings and sweat buckets. And I’m like, Oh my God, I’m like this 20-something. And they’re building like this multimillion dollar thing. And I’m like, I’m supposed to know what I’m talking about. Um, so part of it was learning how to lead myself, like how to, how to be my own leader for me. I didn’t have that much of an examples, at least in the, in, in the environment that I was in. And then, you know, I had, I think I got, I was well surrounded and there’s a lot of people that I think saw potential and gave me opportunities to, um, learn from them. Um, and then as a business owner, I realized that our best asset is our staff, you know, the better the staff, the better outcome and the better of a product.

JD (16:56):

Um, and so supporting them, encouraging them and being their biggest cheerleader is really important to me. Um, I think we all three have gone into this being very mindful in the sense of teaching, uh, giving an opportunity, um, and making sure that they are put in positions where they will learn stuff and constantly grow. Um, we don’t, we don’t believe in having someone do one thing, um, for a year and a half until you get to like, okay, now you get to do this. You know, they participate in meetings to take phone calls. They meet clients, they go to job sites. We want to expose them to what the business of architecture is. Not just, you know, some will come out of school thinking, Oh, it’s designed, and this is great. Yeah. There’s also shop drawings to review. There’s also draws to review. There’s a, there’s a financial side of things.

JD (17:44):

Then there’s the political side of things with the city and the ordinances and aldermen and community groups. So we want them to see all of that stuff. Um, so we focus on making sure that they’re as educated as possible. We look at our clients the same way they hired us to do a project, but they also hire, we feel they also hired us to educate them in the process because most of them haven’t done it before, especially on the single family home side and even on the restaurant side, the commercial aspect of things. Um, so we try our best to always be teaching. So I think inherently that leads to leadership.

JD (18:22):

Um, on the AIA side, a lot of it had, at least it started with me wanting, wanting to have a voice for our firm. It was more, it was grew out of frustration and then it turned into other stuff. Um, you know, my first foray into participating with AIA was, um, AIA Chicago with the small practitioners group. I kept getting frustrated with how things were being, uh, sort of handled by the city on the building department side, in terms of not necessarily feeling that we were being heard, um, went to a couple of meetings at AIA and found out that there’s a large firm round table and they met with the city on a regular basis. And I’m like, well, there’s a very small group of them where there’s like architects, like small firms. And the overall in the country makes up about 70 plus percent, right? I’m like, if anybody should get a meeting with the ability department, it’s small firms. So through AIA, um, I’m like, well, I’ll volunteer for the group. If, if I can, if you guys will let me leverage the AIA Chicago sort of brand to get us in front of the building department on a regular basis. So about four or five commissioners ago, they do go by fast. Um, we ended up having monthly meetings with them. It gave us a chance to look at, uh, code processes, uh, permit, review processes and all of that stuff with them and show them that we could contribute to that and created stuff with them that didn’t exist before. Um, so I saw that there was a way to sort of work with that, to do stuff and benefit other firms. It was never about like, sort of let’s, let’s, I’ll stop when it’s easy for my firm and then you guys can take it from there. It was always really exciting to see that I can, all of us as a group could take all of the small practitioners along and listen to them, make sure that they are heard. Obviously we’re not going to address everybody’s concerns, but to make sure that as a group, we have a voice. Through that national reached out and said, well, you’ve been doing good stuff here. Why don’t you join us with the national small firm round table? So they decided to create a national small firm round table. Um, I got to represent Illinois for it. Um, I think I spent five-ish years there. Um,

DB (20:56):

Were they also doing, they were also doing advocacy in a similar way with national and federal bodies?

JD (21:03):

Yes.

DB (21:04):

Okay.

JD (21:05):

They had started, um, on the national level. They want to basically to do the same thing. They through various surveys national had done, had realized again, 70 plus percent of firms are small firms. They need to be represented. They had, I think at the time 21 groups, they call knowledge communities. Um, all were very specific. Um, but basically they created this small firm round table, which is now called SFX as sort of a overarching group that could sort of facilitate the representation of small firms across all 21 knowledge communities. Um, which was really exciting. And it was also exciting for me to meet colleagues from across the country that did what I did, uh, or do what I do or should say. Um, so that was super stimulating and you get to sort of feed off of all these other A-type personalities that like to be involved in stuff. Um, and they’re all very good friends to this day. Um, we got to travel across the country and meet people and meet with Anne on a regular basis with all the other one 20, uh, the other 21 knowledge communities. Um, so I got so much out of it. It was really, really exciting. Um, and now I’m back, uh, as I did my time there, I, I was also on the small practitioner on the small project practitioners committee, which again was focused on small projects and small practitioners. Um, so we’ve, we published a book of awards. We created a review, like a magazine that comes put every year and it’s always focused on some firms and celebrate small firms and small projects. Um, and then back when I sort of, again, to my mind there, back to Chicago, ended up, um, working with the, um, LGBTQIA+ Alliance and AI, Chicago just now focused on, um, LGBTQ representation within the, um, profession and within AA Chicago. Um, it’s a difficult, I think a difficult thing to focus on, is it simply because it’s invisible? Um, you know, there’s, this NOMA does a fantastic job, um, for minority architects. Um, but it was nice to be part of a group that, um, you know, I’m, I’m proud to be part of the LGBT community and I’m proud to be an LGBTQ owner of a business. It’s been fantastic sometimes when we do have staff that is part of the LGBT community to show them that, yeah, you can run a firm and you, you, you can see yourself in positions that you hope to achieve, which was great. Cause I didn’t see that when I was, um, when I was, uh, you know, freshly out of school or even in school, um, you know, cause I’m old enough that back then you didn’t, you know, you didn’t know about that stuff or certainly wasn’t celebrated. Um, and then from that, now I’m part of the AIA Chicago EDI community. So equity, diversity and inclusion. Um, and so I straddle the Alliance and the EDI committee, um, to sort of again, make sure that conversations are happening. Firms are considering their inclusivity and equity and diversity. Um, so it’s been great to sort of go beyond the, just the simple practice of architecture, but again, it’s this sort of that teaching aspect of things. And um, so it’s hard. I try, I try to always be like, I’m going to take a break. I’m not gonna, you know, I’m good. And then I get sucked in again.

DB (24:52):

No, but what I love about it though, is it sounds like what you’ve done is you’ve taken things that are very personal for you. I mean, being a member of the LGBTQ community or running a small firm and sort of aligned your leadership activities with those things, that really mean the most to you. So it’s not like stepping into a leadership position that you’re not invested in.

JD (25:14):

Yeah. It’s hard to do something that you’re not passionate about. I have sadly, known too many people that can get up in the morning and do something that they don’t, they’re not excited about. I get it. Sometimes it’s a question of making, making a living, not necessarily, you know, doing a hundred percent of what you enjoy. I’m lucky that way I get to do something that I absolutely love with a team I adore with partners that I would not want to have any other way. Um, I’m lucky to do that. So to be able to sort of extend that into other realms and maybe help others have an opportunity that they might not have or access to something that they might not, um, it’s, you know, why not? It’s I love it if I do it it’s because I enjoy doing it.

DB (26:09):

It’s really wonderful to hear and very uncommon I think amongst most architects. What’s, um, with everything that’s going so well, you know, with a thriving practice and with his passion that you have for architecture, what’s, what’s your vision for the next 10 years?

JD (26:29):

Well, um, to keep it going, I mean, we have a great team. We we’ve spent the last couple of years sort of very slowly, uh, we should go a little faster on it, but slowly thinking about succession and what do we, where do we want the firm to be? Um, I think that there’s a lot of reasons why I enjoy and I’m feeling lucky to have started a business with Jay and to have Ramiel as part of our team as well, is that we we’ve always thought about it in a sort of big picture kind of way.

JD (27:12):

From the, from the day we started, we, it wasn’t, every system and every procedure that we put in place, uh, even if our first few projects were tiny, tiny little things, we set everything up, that it could be accommodated to something much larger. So even now, like I, it’s always been interesting for us to like talk to colleagues and they’re like, you’re thinking about what? Succession? Like you guys are like in your forties. I’m like, yeah, but I don’t, I, as much as I, I, I don’t see myself retiring. Um, I think that’s the beauty of being an architect, as long as my brain and my eyes are still working. I think I can still do what I do, only less of it at some point. Um, but we’d like to be able to take some of our team that we have now and groom them to be, uh, partners in the long run. Um, we’ve diversified in the last couple of years and added an interior design arm to our business. Um, there’s a possibility of branching that off as a standalone or a standalone business and seeing if that would thrive as well. Um, I would certainly want to still do the work that I do outside the office. Um, and yeah, teaching would be fun, um, I only have a bachelor’s degree. So I don’t know if they’ll let me, um, but it certainly be something that’d be, I’d be interested in and we kind of do already at the office.

DB (28:45):

What would you want to teach?

JD (28:48):

I just think it’s fun. It’s, you know, I love doing it with the staff that we have in the office. Um, I certainly also like the opportunity or at least I, my idealistic mind goes to like teaching them about real stuff. You know, I remember being in school, I certainly enjoyed the hypothetical ideas of like, just design. Like you don’t have a client, you don’t have to worry about that stuff.

DB (29:14):

There was no budget, there was no gravity.

JD (29:16):

No budget, like structurally, it doesn’t have to work. I love that, but I’ve also grown to notice that it’s seeing multiple people come from various schools and have different sort of backgrounds. Something that seems to be lacking is just a little bit more reality. But I, cause I think that’s, to me that much more exciting, I think I thrive a lot of our staff do too. The more constraints you put on them forces you to be that much more creative to stare at a blank piece of paper and go, okay, go. To me is daunting. But at the same time, I’m like going with what, what am I doing? Who am I doing it for? So we start creating our own parameters. So to be able to sort of teach that in school and you know, I, I would have loved to have clients in school. Like it would have been fun to have that experience of learning how that works, of learning, how that’s works, just so that it wouldn’t be so foreign when you graduate. Um, and that you do understand the breadth of what architecture is.

DB (30:19):

Yeah.

JD (30:20):

More power to the starchitects that get to the, you know, crumple up stuff from a garbage can put it on the table and be like, there’s your building. Also the architects that aren’t necessarily celebrated that are the reason why we have buildings everywhere and you know, 90% over 95% of the building stock. Yeah. They didn’t celebrate it, but they’re still amazing architects that solve problems within budget on time and as a team leader. What about those? And I, that’s what I think is the fabric of, of the profession. It needs to also sort of be raised up, um, and noticed.

DB (30:57):

So how do we celebrate those people?

JD (31:01):

Um, well I think it’s just giving them a little bit more recognition. You know, I, I see plenty of, um, and is coming out of school and the only people they know is the five or six people that are constantly talked about. You know, I was, we were talking about women in architecture, in Chicago and women in architecture in general. And most of my staff could name like two or three and, you know, a hundred percent of the time Jeannie (Gang) is part of that and Zaha (Hadid) is part of that conversation.

DB (31:39):

Exactly.

JD (31:40):

They’re both awesome. But then I got an email from a colleague Jen Park, um, called, uh, “Madam Architect”, a newsletter that she gets on a regular basis. And it’s a wonderful website. I personally had never heard of it being sort of the unexciting white dude that I am. And it was this incredible sight of woman after woman that is skilled, talented, uh, accomplished. Why don’t I know all of them? Cause after reading article, after article, after article of all of them, I’m like, these women are amazing and why distill down this industry to, you know, just a couple of them, celebrate them all and you know, you, and it’s the same thing for firms in general too, you know, it’s great. Like everybody knows who SOM is and who Gensler is. And, um, but it’s also a lot of awards, but yeah, they have PR departments. They have people that they can dedicate 40 hours a week to putting a submission to the awards program together. Small firms firms can’t do that. They don’t have the budget for that, let alone getting professional photos taken and those kinds of things. So I think it’s, it’s up to us as architects to make sure that our colleagues are recognized. Um, and it’s, it’s reaching back and grabbing them and holding them and bringing them along. Anytime you have an opportunity to do something, if you get celebrated, make sure you use that time and that spotlight to shine light on others. And you know, we don’t take every project that we can, um, whether it’s a project that suits us at the time that whatever it is, there’s projects, we get that either aren’t interested in don’t have the time for, you name it. We always, from the day we opened, our point was I is they reached out to us for a reason. So they must trust us to some degree. There has to be a level of trust. There is a level of recognition of skill. Great. I might not do the job for you, but let me steer you to someone else that can, as opposed to them going flipping through the back then was the yellow pages and landing on somebody. Let’s, let’s guide them towards a colleague that may be a better fit than we are. And they will benefit both the client and our colleague. And it’s having that mindset that it’s not a competition, and we’ve never looked at it that way. Um, you know, clients will call us with questions, some of them, so will my colleagues and I’ve called colleagues, these groups that I’ve been a part of nationally and locally have all become friends that I can call and be like, have you dealt with this before? I have been dealing with this and I’m not quite sure how to handle it, anything from business to marketing, to architecture. So why not treat everything else that way? And you know, certainly there’s people out there that are like, no, if I don’t, I don’t want someone else to sort of be better or outdo me. You’re like, I don’t, we’re just not that kind of people. Um, so yeah, that’s a long winded answer, which I seem to be giving you today.

DB (35:11):

No, that’s fine. That’s great. It’s what’s, what’s interesting is I kind of see, I see what you’re saying. And it’s an interesting conversation to have in the time with a following on the heels of me too, and black lives matter and pride month, then we’re talking about your work with, um, the equity diversity inclusion in Chicago. I think part of it falls incumbent upon architects in positions of power, mostly white men in a very white male profession to start to develop this sensitivity that when they’re passing work onto another firm that they’re open to creating the space for women and minority architects to step in, because I can imagine in the past it would be, Hey, let me send you onto the next white guy that I know.

JD (36:03):

Yes. Right.

DB (36:03):

So there has to be, this consciousness is conscious choice that we as white male architects have to step into that space openly and willingly.

JD (36:15):

Yes. But I think there’s also a fine line there too. You know, there’s a, there’s an interesting conversation that’s happening now of, you know, there was this, the idea that we used to sort of express by saying, you know, let’s make sure that everybody has a seat at the table. Right. And I’ve in everything that’s happened in the last couple of weeks, couple of months, I’ve grown to also realize like there’s something inherently white supremacist. Forgive me the sort of the deep dive on that end of things. But I’m saying that as if I control who sits at the table. So the only thing I’d say is as opposed to thinking about it, of, of, of passing my work off or the things like that, I’m not doing like, here’s my rejects. You take them. Cause there’s a, there’s a, there’s a delicate balance there of over the years of us saying, well, you know, I’m not taking this one. Do you want it? Like I’ve had colleagues say, well, now your client thinks I’m second, as opposed to first. So to your point of being careful about how we do things and how we say stuff, I think an important conversation to have is not necessarily, it’s not just when I get the job and I decide not to take it and pass it off. It’s even when I don’t have jobs to pass off to someone is to make sure that, you know, if I have, if I’m invited to a committee and participate, participate about an ordinance with the City of Chicago, it’s up to me to say, Hey, who else is on this committee? Do you have other small firms? Do you have big firms? What firms do you have? Are they minority owned businesses? Women owned businesses like ours. Do you have a full spectrum? Do you have LGBTQ representation there? Because I I’m the white dude that they sort of invited. It’s my job to make sure every, I guess for me anyways, on the LGBTQ side, I want to make sure I’m not, not that it’s not that I think it’s always important, but representation is important. Um, so it’s, it’s again like sort of making sure that everybody has an opportunity. And if you are in a position of privilege to do that, speak up, it might make you uncomfortable. It might make make, they might never invite me again. Cause it’s like every time we have Jean, he has to make sure everybody’s well, great. Well, you know, if you don’t want to invite me after that, well, that’s your problem. I want to make sure that when I’m at a party, it’s not a bunch of white dudes at the party. That all think the same way. I like diversity of thought. I like inclusion of thought, uh, and a good, solid debate about things. Cause we notice all the time, like, you know, I do a specific kind of architecture a specific kind of way, um, let alone who I am and how I identify the work that I do is, you know, fits in a couple of lanes, but it’s certainly in a few lanes. What about all the other lanes that I, I’m not going to think about the impact of what our ordinances or group is or decisions that they’re making? Um, as much as I hope that I be capable of, you know, representing other people, I’m not other people, they need to be there to represent themselves and speak for themselves. So it’s, it’s up to us to sit and make sure that the people that are there, that we, we point out who isn’t.

DB (39:57):

In this, this conversation around equity, diversity inclusion, that’s popping into my head. Like what, what in your view are the issues facing LGBTQ architects? What are the, where are the places for growth or what are the things? The challenge is that? And I should say that WE face because I’m a member of that community as well….

JD (40:24):

I think we… Visible representation. Um, you know, as, as, as silly as it might sound, the idea that, you know, Ellen Degeneris was on TV and I could say, Oh, it’s and key person on TV, or seeing two dudes kiss on TV, or, you know, I say TV is simply because that’s the social media that I grew up with. It wasn’t no Facebook or tick-tock or whatever else that they’re doing that I don’t understand. Um, I think representation and proud representation. Um, it’s one thing to know that someone posts the guy that owns that from he’s the gay guy I’m like, but if you, if you’re embarrassed by it, or if you avoid talking about it, um, or distance yourself from it, because you think there’s an implication…

DB (41:19):

It’s, it’s whispered. Yeah.

JD (41:23):

So I remember, you know, when I moved to Chicago, um, do I tell my boss, do I not tell my boss, is that going to impact, you know, the work that I do or the work that I get, It turned out that I, by the project manager that I worked with when I moved to Chicago and at my first job, um, we are good friends now. Uh, not that we ever worked friends, but, um, I think it’s important to note that, uh, that we are very good friends to a point where he reached out to, uh, help to have us help him with a project was a born again, Christian. So the idea that he was, I’d be like, I didn’t know what that was when I moved here. I, you know, I had a very sheltered little life back in, everybody was white and the same and kind of very homogenous that’s where that, um, we had conversation after conversation over the course of five years of working together about me and, you know, he, I found out he spoke to his boss, I’m sorry, he’s um, his pastor about me because he was like, well, you know, um, he was being taught one thing and didn’t want it to happen to me. Uh, um, he’s like, so he struggled with the, the representation of, you know, what he did in his personal life of who I was, and then the person that I was working with him and the relationship that we had there. So it taught me that his exposure to me changed the way he was thinking about stuff. And also gave me an opportunity to meet someone that was open to talking about it, that he was okay for me to be who I was, be different. Challenge me, be some of your sort of expectations of who I am. Um, but still being an environment where I felt safe and respected and valued. And that, that is everything. Um, I don’t think there’s enough of that. You know, there’s still a very, um, misogynistic approach to construction in architecture. It’s a lot of dudes, construction sites are very sort of overly full of testosterone and with our offices, sorry, our office is about 70% women. So I want to make sure we have those conversations with them of, um, not to be sort of big brother and protective, but I’ve had to deal with it of having contractors. Like if they find out they changed their sort of way around me, I’m like, dude, I’m like, I’m here to do my job. Like what I do when I get home has nothing to do with you and the building we’re trying to build. If that bothers you, that’s all on you, but to be in a position and thankfully early by opening up our own firm, my partner was very, very supportive of me. I’m like, I’m not going to hide who I am and if people don’t want to work with us. I’m like, I’m sorry. He’s like, no, they don’t want to work with us, but fine by me. I’m like screw ’em. On the construction side. So I was very, very supportive and supported in that again, to your point is, is what we need, but it’s also, and I was just having a conversation with someone, um, actually on our call for our zoom call last week. I think there’s, I try my best as a business owner to talk to my staff and say, if something isn’t right, trust that I will back you up.

DB (45:01):

Yeah.

JD (45:02):

I don’t want to be your superhero and come in and save the day. Um, whether it’s my LGBTQ staff or my female staff, even my male staff, I’m not going to come in and save you because that’s condescending and that’s it to me. But I do want you to know, and we will have conversations prior to any of those possibilities of if something happens and it is not right. It’s inappropriate. It’s out of line, trust, trust that I will have your back, that you can speak up. I do not want you to feel like you’re going to hinder our business or piss off a client or cause us to lose the job. All those things are unimportant. The important thing is, is what’s wrong is wrong. So speak up and know that as a company, we’ve got you and we’ll stand by you. And that’s something, that’s a conversation we can have early. And so that when those things do happen, people feel empowered that they have a support system. So whether it’s women or LGBTQ or whatever that is, it’s a question of feeling supported, feeling empowered and feeling represented.

DB (46:15):

Is that part of your onboarding process with new employees?

JD (46:22):

Um, I don’t know. I don’t know if we kind of formalized it that way. It’s something that I feel personally that is very important for me to have those conversations with my staff. I hope I’ve, haven’t missed anybody. Uh, and if they listen to this and they’re like, you never tell me this, I will make a point to do it. But, um, it does. If, if we get to a point where someone is put in a position that I know they’re going to go out on site, um, whether it’s my personal experience with that contractor or client or environment, um, or I know it’s our first time and no one else is going to be there. I think it’s important to say those things and to teach them how to handle it.

DB (47:03):

Got it. I think it’s a great way for a firm to operate in integrity with respect to its employees, letting them know that you’ve got their back. Um, quick pivot. Um, what has architecture given you as an experience? Like what do you, what are you most grateful for?

JD (47:29):

Oh, man, you’re giving me all these big questions. Um, it’s given me everything. Um, I keep getting more out of it every time, every day that I wake up and do this, it architecture gave me a job in the United States, um, which led to, um, meeting my business partner and starting a business, um, led to me meeting my husband. Um, ex-husband now, but still dear, dear friend, it led to all my colleagues that I’ve met through AIA through, um, both national and local. It’s fulfilling. Um, you know, I’m sitting talking to you now in a beautiful little cottage on the waterfront of Lake Michigan in Wisconsin, uh, because it led me to meet wonderful clients that were like, Hey, I heard you need a break or cottages free for a couple of days. Why don’t you just drive up and hang out there? I’m like, that’s amazing. Architecture got me that, um, it got me, I’m, I’m a much more confident person than I’ve ever been. Um, I used to struggle with severe anxiety. I can’t tell you the last time I had a panic attack. Um, so a lot of personal work on that side of things, but architecture was a facilitator for that. Um, you know, I’ve met clients that have came to my wedding. You know, I have, uh, clients that, you know, will send us updates on their kids. Um, you know, that’s the beauty of, of the work that we do. It’s beyond just like designing a building, you’re designing spaces for people interact. And it’s just extremely fulfilling on the restaurant side, like to see whether it’s a big restaurant group or a mom and pop that just opens there first, um, standalone you’re part of that success and it’s, I still get excited. I, you know, I still go to job sites and I get all warm and fuzzy and sometimes I’m like, you know, sit in my car and tear up a little bit. Then I’m like, Oh my God, I get to do this. Like, there’s this thing that’s going to be here for like hopefully a long time that I had a hand in. Um, and I, now I get to tell my staff and get them excited. And I’m like, you do realize like this building’s going to be here for like 50 plus hopefully 75 to a hundred years. Um, and you had something to do with it. I mean, that’s amazing. Um, all of the things that will happen within those spaces, like the impact of that, like, you know, this client that I’m in their cottage, basically just it, like you brought us so much joy by designing this house that suits our family. So well, it’s the least we can do to have you spend a couple of days there. Like how amazing is that? That’s beautiful. That’s architecture. That’s how I see architecture. It’s, you know, it’s not, it’s not how many awards you’ve won. It’s not how spectacular every single thing is. It’s, it’s on the human level. The things that you’ve done, like a house could be a great house and the clients love it, but it might be the relationship that I developed with even someone at the city through the process of getting that permit, that. I’m going to remember more than the project itself. That’s to me the most rewarding part. So architecture has given me a lot, but I’d say 95% of that has been the human relationships that I’ve gotten through it.

DB (51:24):

Yeah, I totally get that. I’m going to ask you one last big question. One last big question, and it probably ties in with your succession plan. What do you want your legacy to be like?

JD (51:43):

Um, my legacy in architecture?

DB (51:46):

Sure.

JD (51:47):

Um, as I, I hope our firm is remembered and carries on with good quality architecture and projects. Um, I hope that I want the firm to continue past the three of us and still do projects that are, um, celebrated by the clients, um, regardless of scale and, you know, design recognition and all of that to me, when a client tells me that they’re happy with it and they couldn’t have dreamed of anything better, it doesn’t matter if no one else likes it. Or if the neighbor’s pissed that, you know, they think it’s a monstrosity. If the client’s happy, that’s who, that’s, who I was working for. And that’s that, that’s who I listened to when and created this thing. Um, I hope we can continue to do that and that it lives well past me.

DB (52:53):

Um, and what is your, what is your personal legacy?

JD (52:58):

Um, the most rewarding thing that I’ve that’s ever happened to me has been to see, I’d say first and foremost staff, that we’ve had sort of carry on and we’ve had people that have like, are building their own firm, uh, or they’ve moved to a bigger firm or different firm and do other things because I like to think that we’ve prepared them to do that. We’ve giving that, we’ve given them all the tools that they needed to do that is it, you know, and I’ve never looked at it. I’ve had plenty of colleagues like, well, that’s frustrating. They’re taking work from you. I’m like, they’re not even if we were to compete for the same types of projects. Good. Uh, we, we, we got you to a point where, you know, you can, you feel comfortable enough and confident enough to do that. That’s amazing. I love that. Um, I hope I’ve touched and taught as many people as possible. Um, that’s what I hope my personal legacy is, is people remember me as someone that helped them get further and reach. I sort of gave them a little boost towards achieving the goals that they had for themselves.

DB (54:17):

Beautiful stuff. Jean Dufresne, I really want to thank you so much, um, for your mentorship and your teaching, your commitment to the profession and the generousness of your spirit. Um, thanks for taking time today to talk with us and wishing all the best as you move forward, my friend.

JD (54:40):

Thank you. Likewise.

Voiceover (54:54):

Thanks for joining us this week on the Architects Possibility Podcast with architect and executive coach David Bradley, produced by Blueprint For Living Coaching. If you’re looking to create more possibility in your professional and personal life, build your business, grow your leadership, or craft your legacy, check out our website at www.blueprintforliving.coach to explore available group or one-on-one coaching options. Be sure to tune in next week for our next episode of the Architects Possibility Podcast. Until then, keep celebrating the possibility in your life and make it a wonder-filled day!